“Wuzhen is a window for China to see the world through theatre, and for the world to see China through theatre”: Interview with Stan Lai
Peng Tao*, Zhu Ning**, and Savas Patsalidis***
This online interview was conducted shortly after the conclusion of the 11th edition of the Wuzhen Festival (October 2024). Participants included Peng Tao and Zhu Ning, both Professors at China Central Academy of Drama, and Savas Patsalidis, Emeritus Professor of theatre, Aristotle University, Greece, and Editor-in-chief of Critical Stages. Our guest was Stan Lai, a renowned playwright-director and co-founder of the Wuzhen Festival. Our discussion centered on the festival’s vision and goals, its impact on Chinese theatre, and the enhancement of dialogue between Chinese and international theatrical practices.
Introduction
Stan Lai is widely regarded as a leading figure in contemporary Chinese theatre. China Daily has referred to him as “the preeminent Chinese playwright and stage director of this generation,” while Beijing News has called him “the pinnacle of our era of theatre.” Internationally, Broadway World described him as “the most celebrated Chinese language playwright and director in the world,” noting that his extensive body of work, which includes over 35 original plays, has transformed our understanding of the art form. The New York Times highlighted his best-known play, Secret Love in Peach Blossom Land (1986), as “possibly the most popular contemporary play in China.” Robert Brustein has remarked that Lai is “the major contemporary Asian playwright of his time, perhaps of all time.”
Born in Washington D.C., Lai completed a PhD in Dramatic Art, University of California Berkeley, in 1983. To date, he has written 40 original plays that have been performed widely across China, the Chinese-speaking world, and beyond. In May 2013, he co-founded the Wuzhen Theatre Festival with Chen Xianghong, actor Huang Lei, and theatre director Meng Jinghui, and currently serves as its Festival Director. Twelve of his plays are available in English in three volumes which he translated himself, Selected Plays of Stan Lai, Vols. 1-3 (University of Michigan Press, 2022).
His best-selling work on creativity (over 1 million copies sold in Chinese) will be available in English in July 2025 under the title Creativity: Asia’s Iconic Playwright Reveals the Art of Creativity (Anthem Press).
Savas: Hello everybody!
Stan Lai: Greetings to everyone! How are you all?
Savas: We’re all okay. How are you? How did the latest Festival 2024 edition go?
Stan Lai: I think it went very well.
Zhu Ning: Hello Savas, Peng Tao and Mr. Stan Lai. I would like to start this online interview by focusing on the closing ceremony of the 2024 Wuzhen Theatre Festival. I was there and I thought it was amazing! There was such a buzz in the air, especially for the young theatre artists. You could really feel the excitement when they received their awards; it was so touching to see their reactions!
It’s interesting to note that the Wuzhen Festival had to pause only once during the pandemic, when the eighth edition was rescheduled from 2020 to 2021.
Μr Stan Lai, I’m really curious to hear how you, as one of the artistic directors and founders, view that transition. What do you think about the festival before and after the pandemic? Have you noticed any major changes? And speaking of changes, how do you see the Wuzhen Theatre Festival’s role in the world of performance art, both in China and internationally, right now? Looking ahead, what plans do you have for the festival’s future development?
Stan Lai: We did have a break in 2020, when the whole world was basically at a standstill. But we strongly believe that the festival means a lot to the people who attend, not just to us. People really look forward to the festival as a source of inspiration, and those eleven days of the festival keep them going for a whole year.
I don’t want it to sound so bleak, but the last few years have been difficult for many people. The year 2021 was strange because we still had to abide by so many restrictions. For example, we had to stay in Zhejiang province for seven days before we could come to Wuzhen. So, if someone was committed to attending the festival, they had to spend an extra seven days doing nothing in a hotel quarantine just to be able to see the festival. But even under these conditions, the festival was full of people. I think this visible display of popularity is a measure of how much the festival has influenced people in China.
As to our original vision and future plans, I want to say that the reason the Festival is successful is that it wasn’t planned to be successful. I think that’s a very important thing. We did not set out with the goal of being successful as our primary objective. We just wanted to create something from our hearts and create the best festival we could under the circumstances. And it has grown into what it is today, but that core idea hasn’t changed. For one thing, it’s one of the few festivals in China that is administered by the artists.
Zhu Ning: How does that affect your operational plans?
Stan Lai: Basically, it’s the artists who run the festival. In terms of programming and managerial issues, it’s essentially just the four of us: Huang Lei, Meng, Mr. Chen and myself. We handle most of the decisions. We are a very busy little team all year round.
Zhu Ning: Do you have any expansion plans or any ambitions to grow larger?
Stan Lai: You know, our goal is not to expand; why do we have to expand? It’s always puzzled me why people keep asking us about it. The beauty of the Festival is that it’s organic. It grew from the ground upwards, and it stays within its own boundaries.
Sure, we expanded our boundaries a bit in 2024. Next time you come to Wuzhen, you will see a wonderful new area called the Granary. It’s a barn complex. These are barns that we’ve turned into theatres. In this last edition we’ve introduced something there that sits between the Emerging Artists’ Competition and the Internationally Invited Plays, and it was very popular.
Zhu Ning: What do you think makes it so popular?
Stan Lai: Those barns provide space for young people to perform. Everyone who performed there in the last edition had already completed some noteworthy work, so it represents the space between emerging artists and the more established ones. That’s one thing that we’re doing. To circle back to your original question about our vision, maybe that’s what you want to hear in this interview, when we first kicked off the festival.
Zhu Ning: Yes, please, tell us how the Festival came to be for those readers who might not know.
Stan Lai: Huang Lei has been acting in my play Secret Love in Peach Blossom Land since 2006. Around 2008 or 2009, he kept saying, “Hey, let’s do a theatre festival.” I was like, why? My wife, Nai-chu Ding, who produces all my work and is now Executive Director of the festival, said, “Are you really sure we need another theatre festival? There are so many festivals in the world, even in China. We don’t need another festival.” But then, one day, Huang Lei whisked me away in his car to Wuzhen. It was a rainy day with very few people there. I quickly realized that the entire town felt like a stage, as if anything could be performed anywhere in the city. To me, the whole town resembled a grand performance space, which left me with a very positive impression right away.
Then I met Mr. Chen Xianghong and he asked, “Can you please tell me what we need here, if we’re going to do a festival?” I said, “Well, the first thing one needs is a theatre, and one that is sufficiently well equipped for all the great troupes from around the world.” He asked me if I knew someone who could build it, and I said, “Oh, sure!” So I called Kris Yao, a well-known Taiwanese architect who’s a friend of mine. I asked if he had been to Wuzhen, and when he said yes, I told him we wanted to build a grand theatre there. This was back in March 2010, and we aimed to have it ready by November 2011. There was a long pause on the phone and then he said, “What?” I thought that was pretty cute. But then he said, “I’ll be right there,” and that was the beginning.
Zhu Ning: With such short notice, did you manage to finish everything on time?
Stan Lai: It was not possible to finish in 20 months, but we did manage to finish it by 2013. In the meantime, I was taken around the town and I saw all the warehouse spaces and other large spaces. And so we created spaces like the East and West Warehouse Theatres, where the Emerging Artists’ Competition takes place, and then we transformed the Ancient Courtyard Theatre, which used to be an outdoor stage. We enclosed it and kept its beautiful wood carvings. Plus, we built the Shen Family Teahouse, right next to where my residence during the festival is. So that’s how we kicked things off with those few theatres plus the Grand Theatre, which was at the same time being built.
Now, our vision has two parts to it. First, there are four fundamental pillars of the festival: The Invited Works, the Emerging Artists’ Competition, The Dialogues, and the Carnival. From day one we have said these four things are equally important. Engaging all the artists in dialogue is so important to the festival. The competition really acts like an incubator for younger talent in Chinese theatre: everyone looks up to it; you cannot believe it. In 2024, we had over 700 entries to this competition.
Peng Tao: And you only picked 18? That sounds super competitive!
Stan Lai: Absolutely, 18 out of 700. Regarding the procedure, it’s not just that you fill out a form. You have to have a script and a video. I mean, we try to keep the numbers down, but it’s become quite a big deal. Young artists really aspire to stand on that little stage, which Huang Lei calls probably the smallest stage in the world. Yet, it has so much meaning, it is incredible. Countless stories and worlds have come to life there. So that’s something we’re very proud of.
Savas: Stan, I wanted to ask you: earlier you said you’re not relying on government funding. How much does the box office cover your expenses? Can you survive just on ticket sales?
Stan Lai: I don’t do the books, so I don’t know the exact figures. But I do know that the festival cannot solely rely on ticket sales, and that the entity Wuzhen Tourism does supplement funding. The unique thing about the festival is that it attracts people who spend money not just on tickets, but also on hotels and restaurants. After our first festival, Wuzhen became the top tourist destination in China for per capita spending, meaning that each visitor spends a lot.
The number one attraction in China is probably Huangshan, the Yellow Mountain, but that’s just a quick cable car ride, you go up and then you come down. That’s it. You don’t spend much. Wuzhen is different and that is why it has become such a phenomenon that others want to copy.
Now, the Cultural Ministry has teamed up with the Tourism Ministry, calling this new agency the “Culture Tourist Ministry,” which I find odd. I don’t know why they call it cultural tourism; it is strange that so many things are labeled cultural tourism. I’ve even seen a theatre festival booklet from another city that looked just like ours, same size, same font. They copied it completely! I thought, wow, people are really hungry for this kind of festival. But good luck to them; I don’t think they’ll last. I haven’t heard anything from them since their first edition.
And that’s easy to understand because we’re co-founders with a vision that has grown from the ground up. To summarize my thoughts I shared during the opening of our last edition, my vision was to open a window for China to see the world through theatre, and for the world to see China through theatre. I think we’ve succeeded in the first part. The second part is about getting more people internationally, like regular theatregoers and tourists, to be aware of our festival. If more people knew what our festival was like, I’m sure they’d come to Wuzhen just to experience it.
Savas: You’ve pretty much answered a lot of the questions I was thinking about—questions regarding your vision, the role of the Wuzhen Festival in Chinese culture, its impact, and how you see Wuzhen as a space for artistic exchange, almost like a crossroads. It’s just what you said: opening a window for the Chinese to look out and for foreigners to come in, as a kind of bridge, connecting different theatrical and cultural worlds. When I was there, I truly felt this beautiful merging of cultures and civilizations in such a stunning landscape. I’m really impressed by how you’ve leveraged the beauty of the surroundings to celebrate the art of theatre, as the landscape itself seems to celebrate it too.
That said, I have a question about the 2024 edition. You used the word “solidity” as a thematic focus. When I think of solidity, I think of fairness, soundness, integrity. I’m curious as to why you chose that word. Is it a response to the instability or fluidity we see in our cultures today? Instead of solidity, which might not characterize our cultures anymore, we seem to be living in a more fluid world. I’d love to hear your thoughts on this.
Stan Lai: Solidity is like a big rock, you know? We chose the word because that’s exactly what it conveys, particularly our aspirations coming out of the pandemic.
For all of us, it meant that we needed to be strong, united, and firm during tough times. Things aren’t exactly easy right now, which is why we picked the word “solidity.” I see what you’re saying about the porous and fluid aspects, and I appreciate that perspective. But for me, it was a straightforward choice based on our current situation and the economic challenges we’re facing.
Savas: I get that you really believe in theatre’s ability to influence the world and make an impact.
Stan Lai: I’m a dreamer, you know? I definitely agree. I mean, if it’s not us, then who else? How can we change the world, especially with all the difficult and dark things going on? Do we want to invent another bomb? Do you think really think that’s going to help? I think we need to do the opposite, and to do the opposite is very hard. Fighting is easy. To destroy is easy. Being angry and hateful is easy. But embracing love? That’s the real challenge, the answer to the world’s troubles.
That’s where the theatre comes in. There are many ways to express love and connection, but theatre is probably one of the most primal ways to do it together. It deals with real issues and crosses borders, asking us to embrace. When we come together in the theatre, that’s the simplest and most beautiful thing. Of course we can change the world. Why can’t we? Why shouldn’t we?
Savas: Absolutely! We’re on the same wavelength. I was curious about your vision for an ideal festival. Can you describe what that looks like? It might be a utopian vision, but since we’re discussing how theatre can impact the world, what kind of theatre or festival do you envision to make that impact?
Stan Lai: Impact? That’s a very good question. Plenty of people come to Wuzhen and the word “Wuzhen” in Chinese sounds a bit like the word for Utopia. People make that connection, seeing something utopian in Wuzhen.
Savas: I was wondering, Stan, when you’re preparing your repertory each year, do you feel the pressure of audience expectations? Earlier, we talked about how important the audience is to you and how precious the festival is for them. There’s this mutual give-and-take. So as one of the leaders of this festival, how are you influenced by the audience’s presence? Does the question of whom you’re catering to affect your choices?
Stan Lai: It’s a very interesting situation we’re in because whatever we choose, the audience will come to see it. So far, at least, our tickets sell out the moment they’re available. Every year, it’s a crazy but wonderful thing. To see familiar faces who come year after year and love to talk about the festival, which plays were chosen, which ones were more provocative or evocative. There is a unique trust and bond between the festival and its audience.
We’re not trying to cater to any specific audience. Our focus is on finding the best work. That is what drives us. And of course, Meng, our Artistic Director, can tell you more. We have a lot of faith in him; we discuss everything. Meng works hard to curate the best pieces, but it’s not just about what we want. Not all plans are realizable. That’s why you have seen more European groups these past few years. In the U.S, the government does not really subsidize the arts. It’s a very strange situation. They can find private funding, but the relationships with the U.S. haven’t been great. So, in our 2024 edition, we didn’t have any U.S. plays. But we’re going to change that next year—there will be some!
We really envy the European groups because they get so much government support. It’s all about bringing the best Western theatre to Wuzhen, which involves many elements and challenges.
Savas: I’ve noticed that in China, there’s a remarkable increase in festivals lately. The number keeps rising, and it’s not just a trend in China; cities all over the world seem eager to have their own festivals, regardless of whether they can handle it. It seems like a matter of prestige, and I’m curious about your thoughts on this surge. Do you think there’s a risk of festivals becoming too commercialized, like supermarkets?
Stan Lai: I don’t think there’s any danger; it’s like asking if there can be too many theatres. I don’t think so. However, festivals can struggle to survive if they aren’t established properly. By “properly,” I mean having a solid foundation in terms of vision and structure. Those are the elements that can help us move forward. The beauty of the town and how it interacts with the art of theatre is complex and hard to define, but that’s part of the magic. For example, Wuzhen plus theatre creates something truly special. It’s not guaranteed that any beautiful place can host a magical festival; it just doesn’t work that way. Wuzhen is often called the Venice of China. Venice also has a theatre festival there, along with a film festival, which is lovely, but the vibes and magic are not the same as in Wuzhen.
The collaboration among us founders, the unique contributions that each of us brings, and the mutual respect we have for each other are all vital for the festival’s growth. If someone starts a festival just to have one, or worse, to calculate economic benefits, they’re on the wrong path. We didn’t kick things off by focusing on making money every year; if we had, I doubt we’d be where we are today.
Savas: That makes sense. Zhu Ning, you’ve been quiet for a while. Do you have any questions or comments about what we’ve discussed so far?
Zhu Ning: Yes, I do. You mentioned certain key pillars of the festival: internationally invited performances, the Emerging Artist Competition, dialogues, and the importance of all these elements. There are also new sections, like additional theatre spaces, workshops, readings, and carnivals. I’m curious about your thoughts on these new sections and what your vision is for them in the future.
Stan Lai: The new sections are designed for young people to have a place to meet since the town quiets down after 10:00 p.m. There are very few places where you can go and have a beer or anything like that. So, we’ve created a night market with food, drinks and activities, including poetry and drama readings that have really taken off. We also invite our audience to participate in those readings.
We asked whether we could use those barns and the town said yes. We’re planning to use even more next year, hopefully six instead of three. These spots are meant for young people, but really anyone young at heart will find them interesting.
Zhu Ning: The festival also features productions that are pretty short, usually under an hour.
Stan Lai: Yes, more than half of the works in the Granary section are under an hour, which is part of the vibe. Tickets are affordable, around 100 and 150 RMB. Wu Bi was one of the directors who won the prize at the Emerging Artists’ Competition many years ago, and he brought a fascinating new production to the Granary this year, so there’s a sort of heritage coming now from the Emerging Artists’ Competition to the Granary. It is a nice sense of lineage.
Peng Tao: Hi, Mr. Stan Lai! I have a question for you. Your first famous work, Secret Love in Peach Blossom Land, is considered a modern classic by many young audiences in China. This year, you did a new production called River/Cloud.
Stan Lai: Yes, River/Cloud.
Peng Tao: As far as I know, it premiered in 2023 in Tai Pei, right?
Stan Lai: No, it had a limited run during the pandemic in 2021.
Peng Tao: Right, and now it’s premiering in Wuzhen. So we can say there’s a continuity with the main characters from Secret Love in Peach Blossom Land. Can you share your thoughts on how River/Cloud connects to the original?
Stan Lai: Yeah, this is the first time that I have created a new work based on my own work. Secret Love in Peach Blossom Land has been running for so long that it’s hard to wrap my head around it. We don’t write plays thinking they’ll be performed for 40 years! We write them for the moment. But this one has been around for 38 years, and for many audiences in China, it was their first experience of theatre. They consider this fortunate because it is a challenging yet entertaining introduction to the art form.
Over the years, I have seen many different productions of Secret Love in Peach Blossom Land and it’s been very interesting and moving, and after 35 years, I decided to fill in the gaps of the Secret Love story with River/Cloud. I created a sort of homage to Taipei in the 60s and 70s, a time of deep angst, where the two lovers, unaware that they are living in the same city, try to build their lives without each other.
A European friend told me how much they loved River/Cloud, saying that European theatre tends to be more in-your-face, but I prefer a more subtle approach. I engage with the audience in a way that pushes them away and then pulls them back in. For example, the amazing Taiwanese Aboriginal singer Kimbo Hu is a total outsider in the play; he doesn’t relate to the story at all, but he’s there, and that creates a kind of intrigue as the play unfolds. It’s my way of employing Brechtian alienation, which I see as a two-way street.
Peng Tao: It’s about practice, right?
Stan Lai: Exactly! It’s about being able to push the audience away and then invite them back in. If they’re not emotionally engaged with the issues in a Brechtian play, what’s the point of distancing them?
Savas: Good point. It’s about balancing engagement and distance, allowing the audience time to reflect on what they’ve seen. It’s a lovely balance between connecting with emotions and engaging the intellect.
Peng Tao: True. Can I make a quick comment?
Savas: Of course, go ahead.
Peng Tao: I read the script for River/Cloud back in June before the premiere in Wuzhen, and I was really touched.
Savas: Thank you, Peng Tao! Zhu Ning, do you have a question?
Zhu Ning: Yes, I do. At the closing ceremony of the latest edition in 2024, one of the founders, Huang Lei, said, “You’re also the Head of the Jury for the Emerging Artists’ Competition.” What are your selection criteria?
Stan Lai: I’ve been Head of the Jury since the first festival. And I can tell you the most important thing to me is to guide the distinguished jury into a consensus. Art is always subjective by nature. It’s not about checking boxes; it’s about discussing whether it’s a good play and analyzing the structure and acting. I always tell the judges that this is the ancient Greek idea of democracy: we don’t vote; we discuss deeply until we reach a consensus. There are no standards that can be published. We don’t grade the plays by points for each category; it’s about what we collectively decide.
Savas: “We don’t vote; we discuss deeply until we reach a consensus.” Nice way to put it. Zhu Ning, sorry for interrupting. Can I jump in with a quick question or better an “aporia” that kept buzzing in my head?
Zhu Ning: Sure. Please!
Savas: Stan, what’s one thing you’re most proud of after 11 years of leading this festival? What do you value the most?
Stan Lai: I know this might disappoint you, but honestly, it’s that we’re still here.
Savas: Brief but quite clear and solid answer! Thank you.
Stan Lai: The cultural landscape is fragile everywhere, especially in China, where festivals come and go. We’ve managed to stick around and remain strong. It’s not about having lots of money or influence; it’s about the unity we have as a group. We’ve never really argued; if we do, it’s constructive. We genuinely care about each other and what’s best for the festival.
Savas: What’s your dream for the future?
Stan Lai: I don’t think too far ahead. I focus on achieving the best we can in the moment. We’ve set a high standard for ourselves and for others, which isn’t easy. It’s much more complex than you might think, so I don’t look too far ahead.
Peng Tao: I think your philosophy aligns with Chinese Buddhist philosophy. As festival fans, we often wonder about your vision for the next five or ten years. My belief is to live in the moment and adapt to the situation, right? Do you agree?
Stan Lai: Absolutely! I’ve studied Buddhism for decades, so I believe there are causes and effects for everything, and everything that happens creates new causes and effects, and that’s how life flows.
Savas: It’s a chain reaction, right?
Peng Tao: Exactly!
Stan Lai: Right! When we started, we were like a small snowball rolling down a mountain, and now we’ve become a big avalanche. I don’t get too excited about it, but I recognize what we’ve created and care deeply about it, so we’re very cautious.
Savas: Stan, you articulated that beautifully. Before we wrap up, I just want to say I admire everything you’ve accomplished in these 11 years. You’ve transformed Wuzhen into a cultural hub, which speaks volumes about your impact on local and Chinese culture. I hope you continue on this successful path, pushing theatre forward to inspire change in people’s lives. Zhu Ning, Peng Tao, any last thoughts before we conclude?
Zhu Ning: No more questions. Thank you so much; it’s been great talking with you.
Stan Lai: My pleasure!
Peng Tao: No more questions or comments either. Suffice to say, I’m thrilled to be part of this discussion. I’m a big fan of Wuzhen and really enjoyed this chat. Thanks, Mr. Stan Lai.
Savas: It’d be great to continue these constructive conversations in the future. I think we need to end our recording now. A big thanks to Peng Tao for his valuable idea to have this online talk and to his students for recording this meeting.
Stan Lai: Thank you all for having me. Goodbye!
*Peng Tao is Professor at The Department of Theatre Literature and Studies, Central Academy of Drama, China, where he also works as a theatre critic. He graduated from the Russian Academy of Theatre Art with a Master`s degree in Fine Art. His main areas of research are Chekhovian theatre studies and contemporary Chinese theatre criticism. His main publications include “A Reading of Three Sisters” (2005/3), “Notes on the Seagull ”( 2007/1) and “A Study on Lin Zhao Hua’s interpretation of Chekhov’s Works” (2008), all of which appeared in Drama :The Journal of The Central Academy of Drama. He has also published “A Fight of a Drunker: About Krystian Lupa`s Production Drunker Named Mo Fei “ (Stage and Screen Reviews , 2017/4), and “Status, Problems and Prospects of New Media Theatre Criticism” (Drama: The Journal of the Central Academy of Drama 2022/4).
**Zhu Ning is Associate Professor at The Department of Theatre Literature and Studies, Central Academy of Drama, China. Her primary research and teaching focus on the history of Western theatre, as well as contemporary Western theatre practices and theories. She is also an active theatre critic in China. With extensive experience as a playwright, she has contributed to various productions, including The Peach Blossom Fan (as dramaturg), Romance of the Western Chamber (musical, as dramaturg and lyricist), Dandelion (script planning), and I Love Fables (as playwright), among others. Zhu Ning has also authored several articles, such as “From Classicism to Anti-heroism: The Adaptation and Rewriting of Shakespeare,” “An Escape from Drama: Eugenio Barba’s Anti-Elitist Theatre Practice,” “The Resurgence of the Classical,” and “The Road We Passed: A Retrospective on a Century of Chinese Theatre Translation.”
***Savas Patsalidis is Professor Emeritus in Theatre Studies at Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, where he has taught at the School of English for close to 35 years. He has also taught at the Drama School of the State Theatre of Northern Greece, the Hellenic Open University and the graduate program of the Theatre Department of Aristotle University. He is the author of fourteen books on theatre and performance criticism/theory and co-editor of another thirteen. His two-volume study, Theatre, Society, Nation (2010), was awarded first prize for best theatre study of the year. In 2019 his book Theatre & Theory II: About Topoi, Utopias and Heterotopias was published by University Studio Press. In 2022 his book-length study Comedy’s Encomium: The Seriousness of Laughter, was also published by University Studio Press. In addition to his academic activities, he writes theatre reviews for various journals. He is on the Executive Committee of the Hellenic Association of Theatre and Performing Arts Critics, a member of the curators’ team of Forest International Festival (organized by the National Theatre of Northern Greece), and the editor-in-chief of Critical Stages/Scènes critiques, the journal of the International Association of Theatre Critics.
Copyright © 2025 Peng Tao, Zhu Ning, Savas Patsalidis
Critical Stages/Scènes critiques, #31, June 2025
e-ISSN: 2409-7411
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Creative Commons Attribution International License CC BY-NC-ND 4.0.
