{"id":181,"date":"2025-06-25T20:02:08","date_gmt":"2025-06-25T20:02:08","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.critical-stages.org\/31\/?p=181"},"modified":"2025-07-06T12:12:18","modified_gmt":"2025-07-06T12:12:18","slug":"wuzhen-is-a-window-for-china-to-see-the-world-through-theatre-and-for-the-world-to-see-china-through-theatre-interview-with-stan-lai","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.critical-stages.org\/31\/wuzhen-is-a-window-for-china-to-see-the-world-through-theatre-and-for-the-world-to-see-china-through-theatre-interview-with-stan-lai\/","title":{"rendered":"\u201cWuzhen is a window for China to see the world through theatre, and for the world to see China through theatre\u201d: Interview with Stan Lai"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

Peng Tao<\/strong>*<\/a>, Zhu Ning<\/strong>**<\/a>, and Savas Patsalidis<\/strong>***<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n

This online interview was conducted shortly after the conclusion of the 11th edition of the Wuzhen Festival (October 2024). Participants included Peng Tao and Zhu Ning, both Professors at China Central Academy of Drama, and Savas Patsalidis, Emeritus Professor of theatre, Aristotle University, Greece, and Editor-in-chief of Critical Stages. Our guest was Stan Lai, a renowned playwright-director and co-founder of the Wuzhen Festival. Our discussion centered on the festival\u2019s vision and goals, its impact on Chinese theatre, and the enhancement of dialogue between Chinese and international theatrical practices.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Introduction<\/strong><\/h5>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai is widely regarded as a leading figure in contemporary Chinese theatre. China Daily<\/em> has referred to him as “the preeminent Chinese playwright and stage director of this generation,” while Beijing News<\/em> has called him “the pinnacle of our era of theatre.” Internationally, Broadway World<\/em> described him as “the most celebrated Chinese language playwright and director in the world,” noting that his extensive body of work, which includes over 35 original plays, has transformed our understanding of the art form. The New York Times<\/em> highlighted his best-known play, Secret Love in Peach Blossom Land<\/em> (1986), as “possibly the most popular contemporary play in China.” Robert Brustein has remarked that Lai is “the major contemporary Asian playwright of his time, perhaps of all time.”<\/p>\n\n\n

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Stan Lai at Wuzhen. Photo by Li Jiaxin<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n

Born in Washington D.C., Lai completed a PhD in Dramatic Art, University of California Berkeley, in 1983. To date, he has written 40 original plays that have been performed widely across China, the Chinese-speaking world, and beyond. In May 2013, he co-founded the Wuzhen Theatre Festival with Chen Xianghong, actor Huang Lei, and theatre director Meng Jinghui, and currently serves as its Festival Director. Twelve of his plays are available in English in three volumes which he translated himself, Selected Plays of Stan Lai, Vols. 1-3<\/em> (University of Michigan Press, 2022).<\/p>\n\n\n\n

His best-selling work on creativity (over 1 million copies sold in Chinese) will be available in English in July 2025 under the title Creativity: Asia\u2019s Iconic Playwright Reveals the Art of Creativity <\/em>(Anthem Press).<\/p>\n\n\n\n

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Savas:<\/strong> Hello everybody!<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> Greetings to everyone! How are you all?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Savas:<\/strong> We\u2019re all okay. How are you? How did the latest Festival 2024 edition go?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> I think it went very well.<\/p>\n\n\n

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Wuzhen Theatre Festival Opening Ceremony, Oct. 17, 2024. From left to right, CHEN Xianghong, special guest Tadashi Suzuki, HUANG Lei, MENG Jinghui, Stan Lai, director of opening play Krzysztof Warlikowski. Photo courtesy of Wuzhen Theatre Festival<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n

Zhu Ning<\/strong>: Hello Savas, Peng Tao and Mr. Stan Lai. I would like to start this online interview by focusing on the closing ceremony of the 2024 Wuzhen Theatre Festival. I was there and I thought it was amazing! There was such a buzz in the air, especially for the young theatre artists. You could really feel the excitement when they received their awards; it was so touching to see their reactions!
It\u2019s interesting to note that the Wuzhen Festival had to pause only once during the pandemic, when the eighth edition was rescheduled from 2020 to 2021.
\u039cr Stan Lai, I\u2019m really curious to hear how you, as one of the artistic directors and founders, view that transition. What do you think about the festival before and after the pandemic? Have you noticed any major changes?\u00a0And speaking of changes, how do you see the Wuzhen Theatre Festival\u2019s role in the world of performance art, both in China and internationally, right now? Looking ahead, what plans do you have for the festival\u2019s future development?<\/p>\n\n\n

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Wuzhen Grand Theatre, architect Kris Yao. Photo: Courtesy of Wuzhen Theatre Festival<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> We did have a break in 2020, when the whole world was basically at a standstill. But we strongly believe that the festival means a lot to the people who attend, not just to us. People really look forward to the festival as a source of inspiration, and those eleven days of the festival keep them going for a whole year.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I don’t want it to sound so bleak, but the last few years have been difficult for many people. The year 2021 was strange because we still had to abide by so many restrictions. For example, we had to stay in Zhejiang province for seven days before we could come to Wuzhen. So, if someone was committed to attending the festival, they had to spend an extra seven days doing nothing in a hotel quarantine just to be able to see the festival. But even under these conditions, the festival was full of people. I think this visible display of popularity is a measure of how much the festival has influenced people in China.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

As to our original vision and future plans, I want to say that the reason the Festival is successful is that it wasn’t planned to be successful. I think that’s a very important thing. We did not set out with the goal of being successful as our primary objective. We just wanted to create something from our hearts and create the best festival we could under the circumstances. And it has grown into what it is today, but that core idea hasn\u2019t changed. For one thing, it’s one of the few festivals in China that is administered by the artists.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Zhu Ning<\/strong>: How does that affect your operational plans?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> Basically, it\u2019s the artists who run the festival. In terms of programming and managerial issues, it\u2019s essentially just the four of us: Huang Lei, Meng, Mr. Chen and myself. We handle most of the decisions. We are a very busy little team all year round.<\/p>\n\n\n

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A Dream Like a Dream<\/em>, written and directed by Stan Lai, opening play for the inaugural Wuzhen Theatre Festival, 2013. Photo courtesy of Theatre Above<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n

Zhu Ning:<\/strong> Do you have any expansion plans or any ambitions to grow larger?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> You know, our goal is not to expand; why do we have to expand? It\u2019s always puzzled me why people keep asking us about it. The beauty of the Festival is that it’s organic. It grew from the ground upwards, and it stays within its own boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Sure, we expanded our boundaries a bit in 2024. Next time you come to Wuzhen, you will see a wonderful new area called the Granary. It’s a barn complex. These are barns that we\u2019ve turned into theatres. In this last edition we\u2019ve introduced something there that sits between the Emerging Artists\u2019 Competition and the Internationally Invited Plays, and it was very popular.<\/p>\n\n\n

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Eugene Onegin<\/em>, directed by Rimas Tuminas, Wuzhen Festival 2017. Photo: Courtesy of Wuzhen Festival<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n

Zhu Ning:<\/strong> What do you think makes it so popular?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> Those barns provide space for young people to perform. Everyone who performed there in the last edition had already completed some noteworthy work, so it represents the space between emerging artists and the more established ones. That’s one thing that we’re doing. To circle back to your original question about our vision, maybe that\u2019s what you want to hear in this interview, when we first kicked off the festival.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Zhu Ning:<\/strong> Yes, please, tell us how the Festival came to be for those readers who might not know.<\/p>\n\n\n

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River\/Cloud<\/em>, written and directed by Stan Lai, Wuzhen Festival, 2024. Photo: Courtesy of Wuzhen Festival<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> Huang Lei has been acting in my play Secret Love<\/em> in Peach Blossom Land<\/em> since 2006. Around 2008 or 2009, he kept saying, \u201cHey, let’s do a theatre festival.\u201d I was like, why? My wife, Nai-chu Ding, who produces all my work and is now Executive Director of the festival, said, \u201cAre you really sure we need another theatre festival? There are so many festivals in the world, even in China. We don’t need another festival.\u201d But then, one day, Huang Lei whisked me away in his car to Wuzhen. It was a rainy day with very few people there. I quickly realized that the entire town felt like a stage, as if anything could be performed anywhere in the city. To me, the whole town resembled a grand performance space, which left me with a very positive impression right away.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Then I met Mr. Chen Xianghong and he asked, \u201cCan you please tell me what we need here, if we’re going to do a festival?\u201d I said, \u201cWell, the first thing one needs is a theatre, and one that is sufficiently well equipped for all the great troupes from around the world.\u201d He asked me if I knew someone who could build it, and I said, \u201cOh, sure!\u201d\u00a0So I called Kris Yao, a well-known Taiwanese architect who’s a friend of mine. I asked if he had been to Wuzhen, and when he said yes, I told him we wanted to build a grand theatre there. This was back in March 2010, and we aimed to have it ready by November 2011. There was a long pause on the phone and then he said, \u201cWhat?\u201d I thought that was pretty cute. But then he said, \u201cI’ll be right there,\u201d and that was the beginning.<\/p>\n\n\n

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Waiting for Godot<\/em>. Directed by Meng Jinghui. Wuzhen Festival, 2024. Photo: Liu Dali. Courtesy of Wuzhen Theatre Festival<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n

Zhu Ning:<\/strong> With such short notice, did you manage to finish everything on time?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> It was not possible to finish in 20 months, but we did manage to finish it by 2013. In the meantime, I was taken around the town and I saw all the warehouse spaces and other large spaces. And so we created spaces like the East and West Warehouse Theatres, where the Emerging Artists\u2019 Competition takes place, and then we transformed the Ancient Courtyard Theatre, which used to be an outdoor stage. We enclosed it and kept its beautiful wood carvings. Plus, we built the Shen Family Teahouse, right next to where my residence during the festival is. So that’s how we kicked things off with those few theatres plus the Grand Theatre, which was at the same time being built.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Now, our vision has two parts to it. First, there are four fundamental pillars of the festival: The Invited Works, the Emerging Artists\u2019 Competition, The Dialogues, and the Carnival. From day one we have said these four things are equally important. Engaging all the artists in dialogue is so important to the festival. The competition really acts like an incubator for younger talent in Chinese theatre: everyone looks up to it; you cannot believe it. In 2024, we had over 700 entries to this competition.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Peng Tao:<\/strong> And you only picked 18? That sounds super competitive!<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> Absolutely, 18 out of 700. Regarding the procedure, it’s not just that you fill out a form. You have to have a script and a video. I mean, we try to keep the numbers down, but it\u2019s become quite a big deal. Young artists really aspire to stand on that little stage, which Huang Lei calls probably the smallest stage in the world. Yet, it has so much meaning, it is incredible. Countless stories and worlds have come to life there. So that’s something we’re very proud of.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Savas:<\/strong> Stan, I wanted to ask you: earlier you said you\u2019re not relying on government funding. How much does the box office cover your expenses? Can you survive just on ticket sales?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> I don’t do the books, so I don’t know the exact figures. But I do know that the festival cannot solely rely on ticket sales, and that the entity Wuzhen Tourism does supplement funding. The unique thing about the festival is that it attracts people who spend money not just on tickets, but also on hotels and restaurants. After our first festival, Wuzhen became the top tourist destination in China for per capita spending, meaning that each visitor spends a lot.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The number one attraction in China is probably Huangshan, the Yellow Mountain, but that\u2019s just a quick cable car ride, you go up and then you come down. That’s it. You don’t spend much. Wuzhen is different and that is why it has become such a phenomenon that others want to copy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Now, the Cultural Ministry has teamed up with the Tourism Ministry, calling this new agency the \u201cCulture Tourist Ministry,\u201d which I find odd. I don’t know why they call it cultural tourism; it is strange that so many things are labeled cultural tourism. I\u2019ve even seen a theatre festival booklet from another city that looked just like ours, same size, same font. They copied it completely! I thought, wow, people are really hungry for this kind of festival. But good luck to them; I don\u2019t think they\u2019ll last. I haven\u2019t heard anything from them since their first edition.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And that’s easy to understand because we’re co-founders with a vision that has grown from the ground up. To summarize my thoughts I shared during the opening of our last edition, my vision was to open a window for China to see the world through theatre, and for the world to see China through theatre. I think we\u2019ve succeeded in the first part. The second part is about getting more people internationally, like regular theatregoers and tourists, to be aware of our festival. If more people knew what our festival was like, I\u2019m sure they\u2019d come to Wuzhen just to experience it.<\/p>\n\n\n

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We are Leaving. <\/em>Directed by Krzysztof Warlikowski. Wuzhen Festival, 2024. Photo: Courtesy of Wuzhen Theatre Festival<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n

Savas:<\/strong> You\u2019ve pretty much answered a lot of the questions I was thinking about\u2014questions regarding your vision, the role of the Wuzhen Festival in Chinese culture, its impact, and how you see Wuzhen as a space for artistic exchange, almost like a crossroads. It\u2019s just what you said: opening a window for the Chinese to look out and for foreigners to come in, as a kind of bridge, connecting different theatrical and cultural worlds. When I was there, I truly felt this beautiful merging of cultures and civilizations in such a stunning landscape. I\u2019m really impressed by how you\u2019ve leveraged the beauty of the surroundings to celebrate the art of theatre, as the landscape itself seems to celebrate it too.
That said, I have a question about the 2024 edition. You used the word \u201csolidity\u201d as a thematic focus. When I think of solidity, I think of fairness, soundness, integrity. I\u2019m curious as to why you chose that word. Is it a response to the instability or fluidity we see in our cultures today? Instead of solidity, which might not characterize our cultures anymore, we seem to be living in a more fluid world. I\u2019d love to hear your thoughts on this.<\/p>\n\n\n

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Emerging Artists\u2019 Competition, West Warehouse Theatre, Wuzhen Theatre Festival. Photo: Courtesy of Wuzhen Theatre Festival<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> Solidity is like a big rock, you know? We chose the word because that’s exactly what it conveys, particularly our aspirations coming out of the pandemic.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

For all of us, it meant that we needed to be strong, united, and firm during tough times. Things aren\u2019t exactly easy right now, which is why we picked the word \u201csolidity.\u201d I see what you\u2019re saying about the porous and fluid aspects, and I appreciate that perspective. But for me, it was a straightforward choice based on our current situation and the economic challenges we\u2019re facing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Savas:<\/strong> I get that you really believe in theatre\u2019s ability to influence the world and make an impact.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> I\u2019m a dreamer, you know? I definitely agree. I mean, if it\u2019s not us, then who else? How can we change the world, especially with all the difficult and dark things going on? Do we want to invent another bomb? Do you think really think that\u2019s going to help? I think we need to do the opposite, and to do the opposite is very hard. Fighting is easy. To destroy is easy. Being angry and hateful is easy. But embracing love? That\u2019s the real challenge, the answer to the world\u2019s troubles.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

That\u2019s where the theatre comes in. There are many ways to express love and connection, but theatre is probably one of the most primal ways to do it together. It deals with real issues and crosses borders, asking us to embrace. When we come together in the theatre, that\u2019s the simplest and most beautiful thing. Of course we can change the world. Why can\u2019t we? Why shouldn\u2019t we?<\/p>\n\n\n

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Wuzhen Dialogues: David Henry Hwang, Robert Brustein, Stan Lai, 2013. Photo: Courtesy of Wuzhen Theatre Festival<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n

Savas:<\/strong> Absolutely! We\u2019re on the same wavelength. I was curious about your vision for an ideal festival. Can you describe what that looks like? It might be a utopian vision, but since we\u2019re discussing how theatre can impact the world, what kind of theatre or festival do you envision to make that impact?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> Impact? That\u2019s a very good question. Plenty of people come to Wuzhen and the word \u201cWuzhen\u201d in Chinese sounds a bit like the word for Utopia. People make that connection, seeing something utopian in Wuzhen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Savas:<\/em><\/strong> I was wondering, Stan, when you\u2019re preparing your repertory each year, do you feel the pressure of audience expectations? Earlier, we talked about how important the audience is to you and how precious the festival is for them. There\u2019s this mutual give-and-take. So as one of the leaders of this festival, how are you influenced by the audience’s presence? Does the question of whom you\u2019re catering to affect your choices?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> It’s a very interesting situation we’re in because whatever we choose, the audience will come to see it. So far, at least, our tickets sell out the moment they’re available. Every year, it’s a crazy but wonderful thing. To see familiar faces who come year after year and love to talk about the festival, which plays were chosen, which ones were more provocative or evocative. There is a unique trust and bond between the festival and its audience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

We\u2019re not trying to cater to any specific audience. Our focus is on finding the best work. That is what drives us. And of course, Meng, our Artistic Director, can tell you more. We have a lot of faith in him; we discuss everything. Meng works hard to curate the best pieces, but it\u2019s not just about what we want. Not all plans are realizable. That’s why you have seen more European groups these past few years. In the U.S, the government does not really subsidize the arts. It’s a very strange situation. They can find private funding, but the relationships with the U.S. haven\u2019t been great. So, in our 2024 edition, we didn\u2019t have any U.S. plays. But we\u2019re going to change that next year\u2014there will be some!<\/p>\n\n\n\n

We really envy the European groups because they get so much government support. It\u2019s all about bringing the best Western theatre to Wuzhen, which involves many elements and challenges.<\/p>\n\n\n

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Wuzhen Dialogues: Stan Lai and Eugenio Barba, 2024. Photo: Courtesy of Wuzhen Theatre Festival<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n

Savas: <\/strong>I’ve noticed that in China, there’s a remarkable increase in festivals lately. The number keeps rising, and it\u2019s not just a trend in China; cities all over the world seem eager to have their own festivals, regardless of whether they can handle it. It seems like a matter of prestige, and I\u2019m curious about your thoughts on this surge. Do you think there’s a risk of festivals becoming too commercialized, like supermarkets?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai<\/strong>: I don’t think there’s any danger; it’s like asking if there can be too many theatres. I don’t think so. However, festivals can struggle to survive if they aren\u2019t established properly. By \u201cproperly,\u201d I mean having a solid foundation in terms of vision and structure. Those are the elements that can help us move forward. The beauty of the town and how it interacts with the art of theatre is complex and hard to define, but that\u2019s part of the magic. For example, Wuzhen plus theatre creates something truly special. It\u2019s not guaranteed that any beautiful place can host a magical festival; it just doesn\u2019t work that way. Wuzhen is often called the Venice of China. Venice also has a theatre festival there, along with a film festival, which is lovely, but the vibes and magic are not the same as in Wuzhen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The collaboration among us founders, the unique contributions that each of us brings, and the mutual respect we have for each other are all vital for the festival\u2019s growth. If someone starts a festival just to have one, or worse, to calculate economic benefits, they\u2019re on the wrong path. We didn\u2019t kick things off by focusing on making money every year; if we had, I doubt we\u2019d be where we are today.<\/p>\n\n\n

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Outdoor Carnival, Wuzhen Theatre Festival. Photo: Courtesy of Wuzhen Theatre Festival<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n

Savas<\/strong>: That makes sense. Zhu Ning, you\u2019ve been quiet for a while.\u00a0Do you have any questions or comments about what we’ve discussed so far?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Zhu Ning:<\/strong> Yes, I do. You mentioned certain key pillars of the festival: internationally invited performances, the Emerging Artist Competition, dialogues, and the importance of all these elements. There are also new sections, like additional theatre spaces, workshops, readings, and carnivals. I\u2019m curious about your thoughts on these new sections and what your vision is for them in the future.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> The new sections are designed for young people to have a place to meet since the town quiets down after 10:00 p.m. There are very few places where you can go and have a beer or anything like that. So, we\u2019ve created a night market with food, drinks and activities, including poetry and drama readings that have really taken off. We also invite our audience to participate in those readings.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

We asked whether we could use those barns and the town said yes. We\u2019re planning to use even more next year, hopefully six instead of three. These spots are meant for young people, but really anyone young at heart will find them interesting.<\/p>\n\n\n

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Outdoor Carnival, Wuzhen Theatre Festival. Photo: Courtesy of Wuzhen Theatre Festival<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n

Zhu Ning<\/strong>: The festival also features productions that are pretty short, usually under an hour.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> Yes, more than half of the works in the Granary section are under an hour, which is part of the vibe. Tickets are affordable, around 100 and 150 RMB. Wu Bi was one of the directors who won the prize at the Emerging Artists\u2019 Competition many years ago, and he brought a fascinating new production to the Granary this year, so there’s a sort of heritage coming now from the Emerging Artists\u2019 Competition to the Granary. It is a nice sense of lineage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Peng Tao:<\/strong> Hi, Mr. Stan Lai! I have a question for you. Your first famous work, Secret Love in Peach Blossom Land<\/font>, is considered a modern classic by many young audiences in China. This year, you did a new production called River\/Cloud<\/font>.<\/p>\n\n\n

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River\/Cloud<\/em>, written and directed by Stan Lai, Wuzhen Festival, 2024. Photo: Courtesy of Theatre Above<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> Yes, River\/Cloud<\/em>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Peng Tao:<\/strong> As far as I know, it premiered in 2023 in Tai Pei, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> No, it had a limited run during the pandemic in 2021.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Peng Tao:<\/strong> Right, and now it\u2019s premiering in Wuzhen. So we can say there\u2019s a continuity with the main characters from Secret Love in Peach Blossom Land<\/font>. Can you share your thoughts on how River\/Cloud<\/font> connects to the original?<\/p>\n\n\n

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AGO<\/em>, written and directed by Stan Lai, Wuzhen Festival, 2021. Photo: Courtesy of Theatre Above<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> Yeah, this is the first time that I have created a new work based on my own work. Secret Love in Peach Blossom Land<\/em> has been running for so long that it\u2019s hard to wrap my head around it. We don\u2019t write plays thinking they\u2019ll be performed for 40 years! We write them for the moment. But this one has been around for 38 years, and for many audiences in China, it was their first experience of theatre. They consider this fortunate because it is a challenging yet entertaining introduction to the art form.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Over the years, I have seen many different productions of Secret Love<\/em> in Peach Blossom Land<\/em> and it\u2019s been very interesting and moving, and after 35 years, I decided to fill in the gaps of the Secret Love<\/em> story with River\/Cloud<\/em>. I created a sort of homage to Taipei in the 60s and 70s, a time of deep angst, where the two lovers, unaware that they are living in the same city, try to build their lives without each other.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

A European friend told me how much they loved River\/Cloud<\/em>, saying that European theatre tends to be more in-your-face, but I prefer a more subtle approach. I engage with the audience in a way that pushes them away and then pulls them back in. For example, the amazing Taiwanese Aboriginal singer Kimbo Hu is a total outsider in the play; he doesn\u2019t relate to the story at all, but he\u2019s there, and that creates a kind of intrigue as the play unfolds. It\u2019s my way of employing Brechtian alienation, which I see as a two-way street.<\/p>\n\n\n

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Dreamwalk<\/em>, written and directed by Stan Lai, \u201csecret performance\u201d in cluster of empty old houses, Wuzhen Festival, 2014. Photo: Courtesy of Wuzhen Theatre Festival<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n

Peng Tao<\/strong>: It\u2019s about practice, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai<\/strong>: Exactly! It\u2019s about being able to push the audience away and then invite them back in. If they\u2019re not emotionally engaged with the issues in a Brechtian play, what\u2019s the point of distancing them?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Savas: <\/strong>Good point. It\u2019s about balancing engagement and distance, allowing the audience time to reflect on what they\u2019ve seen. It\u2019s a lovely balance between connecting with emotions and engaging the intellect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Peng Tao<\/strong>: True. Can I make a quick comment?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Savas:<\/strong> Of course, go ahead.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Peng Tao:<\/strong> I read the script for River\/Cloud<\/font> back in June before the premiere in Wuzhen, and I was really touched.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Savas:<\/strong> Thank you, Peng Tao! Zhu Ning, do you have a question?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Zhu Ning:<\/strong> Yes, I do. At the closing ceremony of the latest edition in 2024, one of the founders, Huang Lei, said, \u201cYou\u2019re also the Head of the Jury for the Emerging Artists\u2019 Competition.\u201d What are your selection criteria?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> I’ve been Head of the Jury since the first festival. And I can tell you the most important thing to me is to guide the distinguished jury into a consensus. Art is always subjective by nature. It\u2019s not about checking boxes; it\u2019s about discussing whether it\u2019s a good play and analyzing the structure and acting. I always tell the judges that this is the ancient Greek idea of democracy: we don\u2019t vote; we discuss deeply until we reach a consensus. There are no standards that can be published. We don\u2019t grade the plays by points for each category; it\u2019s about what we collectively decide.<\/p>\n\n\n

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One One Zero Eight<\/em>, written and directed by Stan Lai, Wuzhen Festival, 2019. Photo: Courtesy of Theatre Above<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n

Savas:<\/strong> \u201cWe don\u2019t vote; we discuss deeply until we reach a consensus.\u201d Nice way to put it. Zhu Ning, sorry for interrupting. Can I jump in with a quick question or better an \u201caporia\u201d that kept buzzing in my head?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Zhu Ning<\/strong>: Sure. Please!<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Savas:<\/strong> Stan, what\u2019s one thing you\u2019re most proud of after 11 years of leading this festival? What do you value the most?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> I know this might disappoint you, but honestly, it\u2019s that we\u2019re still here.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Savas:<\/strong> Brief but quite clear and solid answer! Thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> The cultural landscape is fragile everywhere, especially in China, where festivals come and go. We\u2019ve managed to stick around and remain strong. It\u2019s not about having lots of money or influence; it\u2019s about the unity we have as a group. We\u2019ve never really argued; if we do, it\u2019s constructive. We genuinely care about each other and what\u2019s best for the festival.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Savas:<\/strong> What\u2019s your dream for the future?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think too far ahead. I focus on achieving the best we can in the moment. We\u2019ve set a high standard for ourselves and for others, which isn\u2019t easy. It\u2019s much more complex than you might think, so I don\u2019t look too far ahead.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Peng Tao<\/strong>: I think your philosophy aligns with Chinese Buddhist philosophy. As festival fans, we often wonder about your vision for the next five or ten years. My belief is to live in the moment and adapt to the situation, right? Do you agree?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai<\/strong>: Absolutely! I\u2019ve studied Buddhism for decades, so I believe there are causes and effects for everything, and everything that happens creates new causes and effects, and that\u2019s how life flows.<\/p>\n\n\n

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River Cloud, <\/em>Wuzhen Festival, 2024. Photo: Wang Kai. Courtesy of the Wuzhen Theatre Festival<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n

Savas:<\/strong> It\u2019s a chain reaction, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Peng Tao<\/strong>: Exactly!<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai:<\/strong> Right! When we started, we were like a small snowball rolling down a mountain, and now we\u2019ve become a big avalanche. I don\u2019t get too excited about it, but I recognize what we\u2019ve created and care deeply about it, so we\u2019re very cautious.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Savas:<\/strong> Stan, you articulated that beautifully. Before we wrap up, I just want to say I admire everything you\u2019ve accomplished in these 11 years. You\u2019ve transformed Wuzhen into a cultural hub, which speaks volumes about your impact on local and Chinese culture. I hope you continue on this successful path, pushing theatre forward to inspire change in people’s lives. Zhu Ning, Peng Tao, any last thoughts before we conclude?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Zhu Ning<\/strong>: No more questions. Thank you so much; it\u2019s been great talking with you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai<\/strong>: My pleasure!<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Peng Tao<\/strong>: No more questions or comments either. Suffice to say, I\u2019m thrilled to be part of this discussion. I\u2019m a big fan of Wuzhen and really enjoyed this chat. Thanks, Mr. Stan Lai.<\/p>\n\n\n

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Stan Lai at Wuzhen. Photo: Guo Yanbing<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n

Savas:<\/strong> It\u2019d be great to continue these constructive conversations in the future. I think we need to end our recording now. A big thanks to Peng Tao for his valuable idea to have this online talk and to his students for recording this meeting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stan Lai<\/strong>: Thank you all for having me. Goodbye! <\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n

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*<\/a>Peng Tao<\/strong> is Professor at The Department of Theatre Literature and Studies, Central Academy of Drama, China, where he also works as a theatre critic. He graduated from the Russian Academy of Theatre Art with a Master`s degree in Fine Art. His main areas of research are Chekhovian theatre studies and contemporary Chinese theatre criticism. His main publications include \u201cA Reading of\u00a0Three Sisters<\/em>\u201d (2005\/3), \u201cNotes on the\u00a0Seagull <\/em>\u201d( 2007\/1) and \u201cA Study on Lin Zhao Hua\u2019s interpretation of Chekhov\u2019s Works\u201d (2008), all of which appeared in\u00a0Drama :The Journal of The Central Academy of Drama.\u00a0<\/em>He has also published \u201cA Fight of a Drunker: About Krystian Lupa`s Production\u00a0Drunker Named Mo Fei<\/em> \u201c (Stage and Screen Reviews\u00a0<\/em>, 2017\/4), and \u201cStatus, Problems and Prospects of New Media Theatre Criticism\u201d (Drama: The Journal of the Central Academy of Drama<\/em>\u00a02022\/4).\u00a0<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n

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**<\/a>Zhu Ning<\/strong>\u00a0is Associate Professor at The Department of Theatre Literature and Studies, Central Academy of Drama, China. Her primary research and teaching focus on the history of Western theatre, as well as contemporary Western theatre practices and theories. She is also an active theatre critic in China. With extensive experience as a playwright, she has contributed to various productions, including\u00a0The Peach Blossom Fan<\/em>\u00a0(as dramaturg),\u00a0Romance of the Western Chamber<\/em>\u00a0(musical, as dramaturg and lyricist),\u00a0Dandelion<\/em>\u00a0(script planning), and\u00a0I Love Fables<\/em>\u00a0(as playwright), among others. Zhu Ning has also authored several articles, such as \u201cFrom Classicism to Anti-heroism: The Adaptation and Rewriting of Shakespeare,\u201d \u201cAn Escape from Drama: Eugenio Barba\u2019s Anti-Elitist Theatre Practice,\u201d \u201cThe Resurgence of the Classical,\u201d and \u201cThe Road We Passed: A Retrospective on a Century of Chinese Theatre Translation.\u201d\u00a0<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n

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***<\/a>Savas Patsalidis<\/strong> is Professor Emeritus in Theatre Studies at Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, where he has taught at the School of English for close to 35 years. He has also taught at the Drama School of the State Theatre of Northern Greece, the Hellenic Open University and the graduate program of the Theatre Department of Aristotle University. He is the author of fourteen books on theatre and performance criticism\/theory and co-editor of another thirteen. His two-volume study, Theatre, Society, Nation<\/em> (2010), was awarded first prize for best theatre study of the year. In 2019 his book Theatre & Theory II: About Topoi, Utopias and Heterotopias<\/em> was published by University Studio Press. In 2022 his book-length study Comedy\u2019s Encomium: The Seriousness of Laughter<\/em>, was also published by University Studio Press. In addition to his academic activities, he writes theatre reviews for various journals. He is on the Executive Committee of the Hellenic Association of Theatre and Performing Arts Critics, a member of the curators\u2019 team of Forest International Festival (organized by the National Theatre of Northern Greece), and the editor-in-chief of Critical Stages\/Sc\u00e8nes critiques<\/em>, the journal of the International Association of Theatre Critics.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Copyright \u00a9<\/strong> 2025 Peng Tao, Zhu Ning, Savas Patsalidis
Critical Stages\/Sc\u00e8nes critiques<\/em>, #31, June 2025
e-ISSN: 2409-7411<\/p>\n\n\n

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\"Creative<\/a><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n

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